Discussion: Liz and Carole….and Schrodinger’s cat

What would happen if those two were in the same room together.


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9 responses to “Discussion: Liz and Carole….and Schrodinger’s cat

  1. Deadviolinist

    Oh lord…
    I don’t know. But I’ll begin with stating my impressions on both of them.

    Carole, oh Carole. I don’t know why but she rubs me off the wrong way. I’m pretty sure she knew deep down that Ted was guilty during his years on death row when he was still pleading innocent. She stood by him because she believed he was innocent. But seriously don’t think anyone could be that dense. I’m pretty sure she just loved the attention from Ted. It made her feel special that out of all people, she was “the one”. And that he wasn’t going to kill /her/ as he did the others. Which is why it pissed me off when she completely cut off contact from him the moment he started to confess. Apparently she immediately moved states with her daughter. It pisses me off since I see it through as an act. As if she ever truly cared for what Ted actually was. I think she just wanted to act like she cared so she moved. Deep down she did not care that he murdered all those girls. She just liked feeling special.

    Here’s an interesting excerpt from Conversations with a Killer: Ted Bundy. Here Ted is being interviewed by Hugh Aynesworth

    June 21

    Hugh takes over. This was the second part of a good-guy/bad-guy interview technique. Bundy recognized that. What he wasn’t prepared for was hostile questioning which would cut back and forth between his “speculations” and the facts of his story.

    HA: The cafeteria is closed for cleaning, so you’ll have to do with some potato chips and ice cream bars. Maybe today is “lean and mean” day.

    TB: Everyday is that in here. But then I suppose the Starke Hilton isn’t so wonderful either. Did you get with Carole last night?

    HA: No, we met this morning, just outside the prison. She sent some mail and some vitamin pills. You know, she thinks you’re getting ready to make a mad dash for the outside. She notices that you’re on the edge and maybe even it’s something you’ve said to her. I don’t know. I cannot quite get on the same wavelength with Carole. She is so protective of you that anybody else… almost … is a bastard going in.

    TB: What do you mean she thinks I’m going? She doesn’t…

    HA: She thinks or at least by what she says, it appears she figures you’re going to make a try at it.

    TB: Sheesh [He peers out the window in the door where a guard saunters close every few minutes.] Not so loud. That’s not very popular to discuss. Not even if you’re not planning to travel. [Extra loud] /And, I’m not!/

    It seems Aynesworth shares the same impression of Carole as me. She seems borderline fangirl. I typed that up quickly with one hand while holding the book so excuse any mistypes.
    Recently an ex guard from the Starke prison came out to dispel any rumors to how their daughter could have been conceived. She was not conceived behind a water cooler and the guards weren’t bribed money for a bit of time with the ladies. It’s actually much stranger.
    It’s a common trick.
    The woman hides a condom behind/under some vending machine for the man to pick up later since visitors are thoroughly searched and condoms are one of the banned items. The man would then ejaculate in the condom, tie it up, and keep it warm in his mouth until the woman arrives. Visitors are allowed a kiss and they would secretly pass it through by mouth. And then Carole would have immediately driven to some clinic to have it inseminated.
    That thought doesn’t help my impression of her. Again, it comes off as borderline fangirl.

    I always wonder where their daughter is now and what she does for a living and what she thinks of the entire thing. But I just rest easier on the fact that she was born a girl. Less of a chance of her to have inherited her father’s psychopathic traits.

    On Liz… I often sympathize with her but so far with the chapters you’ve posted, I’ve concluded that she really doesn’t understand psychopathy or she does but she refuses to acknowledge it. Because then it would make her even feel more like shit about that whole relationship. It would affirm her fear that the relationship never meant anything and was completely one sided the entire time. And the sad brutal thing is that that’s true.

    Now, if they were ever int he same room together, I really think that Liz would just try to pretend she wasn’t there and that she didn’t know who Carole was and that she wasn’t at all bothered or preoccupied. I don’t think there would be any exchange of words. Carole would sit with a better poise than she usually does, feeling a bit smug.

    Anyways, I’d also like to share this excerpt from the book. Same date/chapter, just a couple or so pages after the excerpt I shared above. So this is still the same time/convo.

    HA: Well, he’s [the guard] gone now, so we can taalk without you holding that microphone under your arm. Why is Carole thinking you’re aiming to try to get out of here? And are you? What would you do on the street? You’d be recognized everywhere you went.

    TB: I don’t know why anybody would think I would want to leave this country club [laughs]. Yeah, people here think about it all the time, talk about it, but only with those they trust implicitly, but it’s a damned hard to do.
    I’m not going anywhere. [Bundy would plan an escape in 1984] (**I lol’d at this**) Sometimes they act like they hope I would. A smart man can make it, I think… but that’s a subject for another time. Listen, I’ve just admitted I’m as smart as the average guy and I’m not crazy. So why would I slip my white ass out of here, only to get it blown to smithereens buy some of those rednecks who don’t get to shoot often? I’ll take my chances. [He lights a cigarette.] But I guess anybody who’s already escaped from a couple jails always thinks, maybe, maybe…

    HA: If you go out, where would you go? Most of your friends probably wouldn’t care to take the heat of hiding you out. Where would you get any money?

    TB: Oh, I’d have to go somewhere where nobody knew me—that means Australia, South America, China. I’d have to travel at night, to a port town, and stow away on a ship. I’d never /ever/ contact family or friends. Couldn’t afford to. I trust my family, but there’s been too much heat on them already. And my friends might have read too much to remain objective about me.
    I’ve studied a bit about makeup and how to look like somebody nobody would be looking for, but…

    HA: So, you got out and ran away. There’s nothing in prison of a therapeutic nature that would change your habits, your inner problems. So, I assume, you would kill again— and pretty damned quick. Right?

    TB: Wrong! Wrong! We’re not dealing with me anymore. Let’s not take liberties here. We’ve created this individual, so we must use him. If the type of individual–the one who, we know, has killed numerous young women– were to be on the streets after a lengthy incarceration, we can assume that, yes, he would kill again. He’s received nothing… absolutely nothing inside a prison to help him sort out that sickness.
    Speaking about taking the heat… did I tell you about the trick I played on Don Kennedy’s [the defense investigator at the Leach trial] wife while we were waiting for the Leach verdict to come in?

    HA: No.

    TB: I was in the lawyers’ room there and I was making some phone calls, and I called Don’s house in Lake City and his wife answered. I said, “Is Done there?” I knew he wasn’t I had seen him an hour before. I said, “Well, he’s supposed to pick me up here, in front of the courthouse. I’m out here and waiting. Do you suppose you can find him?” She said “Who is this?” I replied “Ted Bundy.” The phone clicked and I damn near laughed my ass off. When Lynn [Thompson, another lawyer] came in later, he asked me what I was taking about… Did I know something he didn’t?

    It kind of saddened me a bit, just for a moment when he said (where we now know after his confessions that he’s speaking in third person) “we can assume that, yes, he would kill again. He’s received nothing… absolutely nothing inside a prison to help him sort out that sickness.”
    In a way it is true. But there is no cure for psychopathy, which is still kind of a sad thing. But in this book he lies almost 100% of the way through.
    I later read The Riverman: Ted Bundy and I Hunt for the Green River Killer. I noticed many contradictions with what he said in that books vs. the Michaud and Aynesworth death row interviews.
    There, Robert Keppel asked him pretty much the same thing except in terms of “the Riverman”. The only way he was able to open up was to speak in third person. I think with him speaking through/about another person he was similar to, he was able to be more honest than if he were to just speak about a hypothetical entity like he did with the interviews with Aynesworth and Michaud.
    Keppel asked if the Riverman would ever be able to stop killing woman, EVER. Ted replied that there would be absolutely NO WAY, no, no, no, he would ever change and nothing could ever stop him ever. Just nothing. (Here, Keppel joked that being caught and imprisoned would stop him]

    • Beckey

      Wow, thanks for sharing all that! I too see Liz as non confrontational and would probably pretend she didn’t see Carole just like she her head was kind of buried in the sand in the book. You’re probably right about Carole too.

    • I had to breakout my notepad app to reply to your comment. Which means I love it already! Seriously talking about all this is my passion, my favorite hobby so it’s been SO much fun connecting with everyone.

      Carole- Totally agreed. Vapid and selfish and most likely a murder groupie. She played with a caged animal. Liz slept next to Ted. Point one for Liz here.

      Rosa- I think though back then jails were less grrrr so I could totally believe a guard being charmed by Ted and letting him and Carole do the nasty on the sly. And sometimes I forget to take into account that we are taking it on Carole’s word that Rosa IS his daughter. The condom thing is just ew. She must have really really really wanted a serial killer’s trophy. Huh, one thing Carole and Ted had in common. They liked trophies.

      Whenever I read a Ted interview, I wonder which Ted we were going to get. It’s exhausting trying to pick out the small parts that were real and the parts where he just couldn’t help but to lie. I don’t think a serial killer such as Ted could ever stop killing. He got out that last time and had that insane burst at the sorority house and then poor Kimberly.

      • Deadviolinist

        Here’s the article I read that from: http://www.examiner.com/article/former-correctional-officer-tells-how-ted-bundy-impregnated-carole-boone

        And my mistake, it was actually a correctional officer, not a guard. He also provides a tiny little insight on Ted.

        Even before the entire Ted Cases ordeal, Carole and Ted knew each other. They were coworkers I believe? Or something along those lines. She was that chick on the sideline admiring him in those days Ted hadn’t been placed as a suspect yet. I’m sure Ted’s new celebrity status only made him more attractive to her.

        I love talking about this stuff too, but people I know in real life aren’t usually as interested as I am to listen, lol.

        I read that you are also into Harry Potter. So I wanted to bring the subject of Tom Riddle/Voldemort. I feel like his character was a combination of Hitler and Ted Bundy.
        Hitler, for obvious reasons.
        Ted Bundy, with the way they both gradually changed appearance, how they were incessantly described as exceedingly handsome and charming, their plain unsuspecting names, the trophies… But the one thing that struck me the most was how their relationship (or lack of) with their mother changed them.
        We know now that the beginning months of when a child is born is crucial for the child’s complete mental development. It is important that they are held and loved from the beginning. Both of them were bereft of this. Both were immediately institutionalized in crowded nursing areas where they wouldn’t get much needed attention. Bundy was only for the first two months before his mother retrieved him back, but it was a little too late then. Not to say that this was why he was what he was, he already had the genetic predisposition (so did Riddle with his mother’s side riddled with incest upon incest), but the fact that he wasn’t cared for immediately surely did not help. Riddle also was placed in a muggle orphanage in the threat of war and a depression.
        I recall this one other serial killer (forgot the name) who went on a rage of murder but the moment he killed his mother, he snapped out of his reverie and turned himself in because he realized that that’s what he wanted to do in the end. But at first he could not bring himself to kill his mother because he was dependent on her so he let out that urge and killed others in place of her.
        From this and other things we know of Bundy, people assume that killing women who bore similar characteristics to his mother was a way of killing her without actually killing her. For Bundy it applied for both his mother and his ex Stephanie.
        Riddle, felt vengeful towards his filthy muggle father because he thought he was the reason why he had to suffer in the orphanage, so he wanted to eradicate every single muggle or muggle born.
        Rowling stated that if his mother willed herself to live and chose to raise her son, Riddle would not have become Voldemort. If both of them had healthy relationships with a mother figure, it may have helped.
        Same thing for Gary Ridgway, the River Killer, after his relationship with his mother became twisted and sexualized. Although Bundy made different claims with his last interview, in other interviews he claims his family life was not peachy. The relationship with his mother went nothing deeper than casually asking about the weather.
        But I know the majority with messed up family lives still do not grow up to be serial killers or mass murderers. Not all psychopaths are serial killers but all serial killers are psychopaths. Or not all Slytherin’s are death eaters but all death eater’s are Slytherin’s. (fellow Slytherin here, btw). But with genetic predisposition plus mommy issues probably do result in them.
        This fact saddens me. PET scans were performed on orphaned kids who came from super busy orphanages and third world or developing countries and there was in fact a deficient in that part of the brain which gives us empathy and the understanding of love as we know it.

        Sorry this post was so scatterbrained and long winded. I don’t even know if it made complete sense as I intended it to come across. I don’t enjoy proofreading and I type fast lol

      • Highest of freaking fives for the comparison of Ted and Voldy’s home lives! That was awesome to read and I love the connection. I think about how a lot of kids grow up without moms or dads or have abusive ones and they turn out okay. But Ted very early on recognized a need for a family connection. He desperately wanted one. I really think that’s why he was so crushed when Stephanie burned him so horribly. He’d built up this great plan to have a family and have kids who have a loving mom and a loving dad (despite his lack of being normal and of course that pesky part of him being a serial killer) and she crushed his dream. I don’t think he ever got over his mom’s indifference towards him. Just like Voldemort never got over his mother choosing death over him. Bloody brilliant comparison there. It didn’t help Ted that his grandparents were assholes as well. He got a double dose of shitty home life. I think sometimes Ted really thought he could be normal. I think those times came after he killed, the calm between victims. I think those are the times he and Liz dreamed of their future. When he would try hard in school or at his job. But the anger would build up, the addiction to hunting. The times when he tried to engage Liz in his sexual fantasies and their failure added to that. I’m pretty sure as far as we know, Liz was the only person he told about wanting to have sex with a corpse. I’m trying to remember if Stephanie mentioned anything about that.

        I really truly think if we’d kept Ted and did a ton of testing on him, we’d be closer to understanding serial killers. I get there’s rights and what not of prisoners but sometimes the Greater Good right (haha I know I’m treading on thin ice using that, great power great responsibility and what not) but who would it have hurt to feed him and do testing on him. The psychologist part of me goes bonkers thinking of all the tests we could have done. The PET scans alone. I would have loved to see which images made his brain light up. Also, what would technology Ted look like. He talked in some of his last interviews (which I take with a grain of salt) about porn and how that helped him be who he became. These days you can get porn in as fast as your internet connection allows. Yet as far as I know, we haven’t had a Ted Bundy since…well Ted. I would have liked to see what his response to that is. Alright, I’ll admit it, I really wanted them to feed him and keep him caged until I got all grown up and could poke and prod him and hook him up to wires and ask him crazy shit. In the name of science of course 😉

  2. CathyP

    Eh…I think you are sampling on the dependent variable here. You can’t take a few serial killers and then point to their upbringing as causes. You need a proper random sample of humans, adopted and not adopted, and then follow them through to adulthood. Many of the adopted ones will turn out just fine.

    It has been established that Ted’s grandfather was a mean and abusive SOB. It seldom turns out well for kids who are exposed to mean and abusive men. Take a random sample of babies, stigmatize the experimental babies as “bastards,” lie to them about their parentage, and expose them to an abusive old man. I hypothesize that you will find a stiatistically higher incidence of psychopathology in the experimental group.

    • Deadviolinist

      I wasn’t claiming anything definitive or anything, just sharing some connections I’ve seen. This is also from someone who see’s Harry Potter everywhere.

      There was a study held that followed kids with conduct issues and psychopathic traits into adult hood. More than half did end up “maturing” and growing out of it, while others still carried some of those traits and even had criminal offences on their names. Among this group of people, you are right about the abusive men part. Either the father/man figure was non-existent or abusive, and the mother was some type of indifferent pushover. With these kids who carry psychopathic or sociopathic predispositions, they need constant reinforcement and training with associating good and bad conduct. But most people are not prepared for that, and there is a point where parents “give up”. It’s not comfortable to say, but some children are just born a certain way, some cases are tougher than others and environmental factors like immediate institutionalization upon birth does not help. In the worst cases the best bet is to get them while they’re young and be very, very, very persistent. The mother figure is the most important, however. They can usually do without a father.

      (There were some instances that show otherwise. I think there were these parents of a kid who shot up a place, they said they did everything you were supposed to do and more to their child so that they develop properly and never neglected the child as an infant, never abused him, but the child had always been cold, distant, and unresponsive. That highly anti-social part of the child’s responsibility had always been ingrained before they even had the opportunity to mold parts of his personality as parents do. There was also this one man who randomly went out to kill an entire family in their sleep and their parents thought they raised a pretty normal kid, they never abused him and maybe even spoiled him. But then again these may just be parents lying to themselves and compartmentalizing things in the back of their head because they don’t want to even partially blame themselves, and how else would one react if their child ended up killing a whole bunch of people.)

      A lot of what we know about this is still quite nebulous. An even the correlations we find should never be taken definitively. Bundy himself stated that where detectives and psychologists went wrong about him and the Riverman was when they took book definitions and classifications to heart. Even with some of the most cold hearted sons of bitches psychopaths, nothing is ever black and white. (but then again is he lying there and just saying what we want to hear? I don’t know. He /has/ admitted into calling his condition an “entity” because he knew people would be more comfortable with that wording and that that’s what people wanted to hear.)
      Anyways, Research is so expensive and I don’t think people care enough for this particular mental disorder as they do more commonplace or relatable ones such as anxiety and depression. So it may be a long while before we completely understand.

  3. CathyP

    Hey Deadviolinist, that research on kids is interesting. Post a link to an article if you have one. It makes sense. Many people think that psychopathy is innate and inherited, but it is so hard to control for socialization.

    Here is a link to a film on psychopathy. http://youtu.be/bcRRZsag0Io

    I hope the link works. In the end they suggest that the overuse of psychotropic drugs deadens us to the harm of psychopaths, and as a result, society has become more tolerant of psychopaths.

    The film also points to materialism and consumerism as a cause of the rise in psychopathy because our culture values things more than people. Psychopaths value things over people. Ted Bundy admitted to wanting things. He really wanted to posess stuff, so he stole a lot. I find it fascinating to read Bundy’s description of his stealing.

    • Deadviolinist

      Have you read Convo’s w/a killer? He spoke about it in detail there. It was interesting when he talked about how proud he was of one particular theft of an expensive rug.

      I’m still trying to fine the other articles.

      The main little boy they speak of in this one sounds like a little shit. haha. He already realized his own skill of manipulation at an early age. The father claims the child might have inherited it from him since he was the exact same when he was a kid. But the father described how he slowly snapped out of it in a way, but they are worried that their son is a more extreme case. But I won’t give everything away. It’s a long read but it’s very interesting:

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